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-
- ************
- Topic 19 Tue Oct 16, 1990
- JOHN.ALBERT at 00:03 EDT
- Sub: The Macintosh Classic
-
- OK, it's here, and it's cheap........
- 98 message(s) total.
- ************
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 1 Tue Oct 16, 1990
- MARK.HIATT [GENIEus p150] at 02:22 EDT
-
- And the ads are great, too!
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 2 Tue Oct 16, 1990
- D.BOWER2 [David] at 18:25 PDT
-
- The question is, 'Should I buy one?' ....
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 3 Tue Oct 16, 1990
- MARK.HIATT [GENIEus p150] at 21:38 EDT
-
- There's two answers to that one. It looks to me like there's the Official
- Company Line answer and the really-me, really-buy answer. I think that if
- someone has a GEnie account (and access to all of the help that that gives
- you) and needs to get some word processing or spreadsheeting done then they
- can do a lot worse than a 'Classic. We're essentially looking at an $800
- MacPlus or SE--not a bad machine but nothing you'd want to set out to cure
- cancer with, either. But I wonder where the market is for the other two.
-
- But even at that, I think we'd all better try to help FIND that market--and
- fast. If anyone asks me for a recommendation, I'll tell 'em that the new low
- cost Macintosh is a great way to get into the wonderful world of Mac
- computing, etc. etc. because it is VERY important to Apple Computer and to
- "the rest of us" that these machines succeed. They may not be the greatest
- Macs ever built, or the fastest, or the highest-resolution or the most
- "insanely great" machines ever built--but they're what we've got now to get
- market share back, which translates into competetion which means better and
- more software and lower prices.
-
- They may not be great, but they *ARE* a Great Start.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 4 Tue Oct 16, 1990
- J.BOSER1 at 21:42 EDT
-
- true Mark... but if a machine does not sell itself, we can only harm mac's
- reputation by pushing it... I say we should evangelize mac, and point out
- all the options, and let a person decide for his/her self.
- -Jeff
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 5 Tue Oct 16, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 23:00 EDT
-
- Keep in mind the Mac Classic's intended to be an ENTRY level machine, not one
- intended to be part of an upgrade path for most who are currently using Macs.
- For someone just starting out with a Mac, the price is tough to beat and most
- likely the capabilities of the machine more than adequate. I doubt it will
- take long for third party manufacturers to come out with higher capacity hard
- drives which can replace the standard 40 MB which appears to be the largest
- Apple plans on offering. Since I've not had any hesitations recommending a Mac
- Plus to this point, if it fit the intended tasks instead of recommending
- someone spend additional money on a SE, as long as the Classic will fit the
- "bill," and save people money, those are probably the most important aspects
- for someone who's considering a Mac Classic versus a comparable DOS machine.
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 6 Wed Oct 17, 1990
- JOHN.ALBERT at 00:05 EDT
-
- As an entry-level replacement for the Plus (and the SE), the Classic
- strikes me as well executed. The one I saw had a 40mb drive (don't
- know who the OEM is) that seemed reasonably fast. The keyboard is a
- slightly redesigned version of the Apple IIGS keyboard (now with the
- "power on" switch for use with the II series. Mouse seems to be the
- same ADB design as in all other Macs. Interestingly, there is no
- brightness control on the front of the machine; instead, you set it
- through a cdev. Guess this means you _have_ to use a screen saver,
- rather than just resort to "turning down the screen" a bit if you walk
- away from the computer. There's only one ADB port on the back (same
- with the LC and IIsi).
- Since with the introduction of the new line Apple is offering some
- sort of "rebate" program 'till the end of the year, it will probably be
- sometime after January 1st before competition forces street prices
- to a "real" level (rebates - like the typical "package" deals - always
- enable dealers to "mask" the real selling price of the merchandise).
- I would predict that the eventual street price of the Classic will end
- up around $680 or so in the hotter markets, probably around
- February.....
-
- - John
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 7 Tue Oct 16, 1990
- CHUQ at 22:01 PDT
-
- Mark: expect street price for the Floppy version of the classic to go
- to the $650-$700 range. the 2meg/HD version will probably street price for
- right about 1K (in my humble uneducated opinion).
-
- As an entry level machine, the classic is neat. You're getting the essentials
- of an SE for less than the price of a plus. Much less.
-
- These were not designed to be the greatest/fastest/whatever. They were
- designed to be good, inexpensive macintoshes. If you want placements,
- consider these:
-
- o For $1K street, you can now buy what used to run you about $2400 for a
- SE with an equivalent hard disk. For $700, you can buy a floppy based
- system and add on when you can afford it. That's comparable with all but
- the cheapest and grungiest PC clones.
-
- o List price for an LC with a color monitor, hard disk, keyboard and
- 2 megs is right about $3,000. Street price when fully available?
- Figure $2500. It has the power of a IIcx, roughly -- for a lot, lot
- less.
-
- o think of the IIsi as a replacement for the Mac II -- more slots and
- flexibility and more power than the LC. The list for a IIsi with 80
- megs and color and 5 meg is roughly $5,000. Street? 4ish, more or less.
-
- Each machine is at adding functionality and power while significantly cutting
- the price of the machine it replaced -- you can now do sound input without
- extra hardware, for instance.
-
- you can buy a color LC for the price of the better 286's, except that the LC
- is more powerful, comes with the mouse, comes with the OS, comes with the
- serial and SCSI ports, comes with a network built in and comes with full sound
- capability. If you had an MS-DOS machine, after buying MS-DOS and adding a
- mouse and Windows and a serial card for the printer and (and (and)) think
- about where the cost would really be.
-
- There's actually some really neat hardware tweaks inside the boxes, like the
- VRAM on the LC. But what's important is that Apple has finally made machines
- that are not only powerful and accessible, but affordable. There wasn't a lot
- of obvious ground-breaking like with the fx or the ci -- but the point was
- added power and cost reduction, not revolutionary change. These are very much
- evolutionary machines -- extending the known world to new domains and not
- groudnbreakers. (but they weren't meant to be)
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 8 Wed Oct 17, 1990
- G.MATSUDA [Gann] at 03:16 PDT
-
- I am impressed with the Mac Classic. It is faster than both the Plus and SE,
- looks nicer, better sound capabilities, SuperDrive, and more. As an ENTRY-
- LEVEL machine, it's hard to beat. It's not a revolutionary product by any
- sense of the word. But for those who have been wanting to get into the "world
- of Macintosh" and for those who are in the market for their first computer,
- the Mac Classic is a good starting point. It has enough power to do just
- about all the things that most beginners would want to do, so it plays its
- role in the product line nicely. I think the Classic is a great move by Apple
- to increase market share. I'd bet Apple will sell a lot of them.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 9 Wed Oct 17, 1990
- D.BOWER2 [David] at 05:30 PDT
-
- They seem to be selling alot already. In the 25 minutes that I stood in the
- local MicroAge (Ala Moana) they moved *5* Classic 2/40's out the door... After
- looking at it my self, if I'd had $2000 available I'd have picked up #6.
- Maybe for Christmas, the last thing I need now is more debt. :/
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 10 Wed Oct 17, 1990
- J.JIMENEZ [Juan] at 11:30 EDT
-
- You think's fast, you should have seen the local Apple Center moving out
- IIcx's and Plus' last Saturday. Plus' for $950, loaded IIcx's for under $5500
- (5 megs, 80 meg HD, mono monitor and card, extended keyboard...
-
- Juan
-
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 11 Wed Oct 17, 1990
- J.BAXTER at 23:17 CDT
-
- One question, is there a slot capable of holding an Ethernet card on the Mac
- Classic? This is absolutely critical to many companies and educational
- institutions (including mine). Regarding pricing we can currently buy IBM
- PS/2 Model 55SX machines with 1920K memory, 30MB disk, mouse, Windows, Word
- for Windows, DOS 4.01, and several other relatively useless software items for
- $2349 with an IBM 8513 color monitor. The machine has three open slots for
- Ethernet, memory expansion to 12MB in one slot, and 1 slot left over for toys
- such as coprocessor boards, 24 bit color boards, etc. What's the equivalent
- Apple product? And what does it cost? My current thinking is that the
- equivalent may be the Mac IIsi but the cost doesn't match up. Intelligent
- rebuttals, alternatives are desired. I don't want a war just a reasonable
- answer, please!
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 12 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- G.WOOD9 [Gary.Wood] at 03:13 EDT
-
- The Classic does not have an internal slot. The IIsi and the Mac LC each
- have a single slot. Apple is working on an Apple Ethernet card for "less
- then $400 ( MacWeek 10-16-90 p.8 ). Asante' also will have a card for the
- IIsi for $495. It fits in the PDS slot and does not need the $249 PDS
- adapter card from Apple. They are also working on a SCSI-to-Ethernet
- network adapter for slot poor Macs at $595 ( MW p.15 ).
-
- As for alternatives to PS/2 55x config, I've seen ads ( MacWeek ) for
- a Mac IIsi 2 meg/40 meg hard disk for $2899. I'm sure this can be topped
- in the next few months...Christmas specials. This same company lists a
- Classic for $989 ( I assume this is also a 2meg/40 setup ). Your best
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 13 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- MS.RAINBO at 03:21 EDT
-
- J.BAXTER,
-
- No slots on a Classic. The closest machine to what you want would be the LC.
- With 2MB of memory and a 40MB hard disk, it lists at about $3100 with monitor.
- I would expect that once production ramps up next year that you'll be able to
- buy it for about the same price as your 55SX package, although adding Ethernet
- will be extra. The WriteNow bundle from T/Maker should fill your software
- needs, and it'll run rings around Word for Windows.
-
- Good luck!
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 14 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- G.WOOD9 [Gary.Wood] at 03:25 EDT
-
- As I was saying above, your best bet may be the LC. List price without
- a monitor is $2499 for a 2meg/40 meg HD,keyboard,mouse, and 1.44 meg floppy
- 3.5" drive. Street price sans monitor ( guess ? ) $1800-$1900 for a 16-MHZ
- 68020 with one slot. Also the author is not responsible for incorrect info
- listed due to source ( MacWeek 10-16-90 ) <<grin>>
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 15 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- G.MATSUDA [Gann] at 01:34 PDT
-
- David--
-
- MicroAge in Ala Moana Center? I thought MicroAge was only a California based
- chain. Good for them, if they can expand to Honolulu. How are prices in
- Honolulu? I know on Maui, the prices are considerably higher for hardware and
- software than on the mainland (I have relatives from both Oahu and Maui).
-
- Gann
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 16 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- R.SIGMON [Rodney] at 07:09 EDT
-
- There's also a MicroAge in Hickory, NC, so it's defintely not just a
- California company.
-
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 17 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 14:36 EDT
-
- According to Microage's advertisements on CNN, they've got stores nationally
- Not everywhere but most likely the majority of the larger metropolitan areas.
- Surprisingly they're one of the few larger groups of stores which is promoting
- the Mac in some of their advertisements.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 18 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- MARK.HIATT [GENIEus p150] at 14:48 EDT
-
- I think it's going to be a winner. $801.00/$1212.00 at the university, so
- it's definitely affordable (as these things go). The more I look into the new
- machines, the more I like 'em!
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 19 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- BOB.DANIEL at 15:27 CDT
-
- Microage is in KC and all over the midwest.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 20 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- CHERNOFF [Paul] at 20:01 EDT
-
- I have read that 1 or 2 companies are working on external monitors for the
- Classic. It seems that you add memory via an add-on board, and that 3rd party
- boards can include access to a 2nd screen.
-
- Paul
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 21 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 22:56 EDT
-
- Heck, there are already 030 accelerator's announced for the Classic, in
- addition to larger capacity internal hard drives. Someone must think it's
- going to be a good seller. :-)
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 22 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- MARK.HIATT [GENIEus p150] at 23:30 EDT
-
- I sold one tonight! To a SEARS guy who was telling me how he was going to buy
- a PS/1 on his discount! He called his roomate to pick him up early so he
- could get to the Apple store tonight!
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 23 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- M.GABRYS at 21:41 MDT
-
- True the real advantage of the "classic" is the ability to grab the idiots who
- want to do anything productive with Windows for less than a grand, plus the
- new Mac visibilty is needed for the low end. Aside from that heck, I like the
- looks of MY 2 year old Mac"classic" better as well as the keyboard, and it
- only cost me 1300 back in 1988....so nyeah. (okey so I'm steamed at paying
- off the loan on an orphan).....Captain ZEEP!
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 24 Thu Oct 18, 1990
- C.HABIG [Chris] at 23:16 CDT
-
- At the university store in my city, they sold 8 Mac Classics before 10:00 AM
- and they opened at 9:00!
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 25 Fri Oct 19, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 02:35 EDT
-
- Zeep, I'd hardly classify those who purchase Classics as "idiots." Comparison
- shopping only makes good sense and as I, and I think others have stated, if
- what someone intends to use a computer for falls within the capabilities of
- the Mac Classic, why not have them consider it? I'm not sure people who will
- be comparing the Mac Classic with, most likely, IBM's PS/1 will know much
- about Windows other than what so called "experts" have told them they HAVE to
- have it for. With the apparent capabilities of "customizing" a Classic rather
- than being "stuck" strictly with what Apple offers for it provides a darn good
- potential for ending up with more than "just" a 68000 based Mac. For that
- matter, any DOS machine in the price range of the Mac Classic, whether you go
- by SRP or actual street price, is barely a machine worth considering running
- Windows on. :-)
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 26 Fri Oct 19, 1990
- PHOTOBASE2 [John Crane] at 18:14 EDT
-
- There are a lot of people out there who would like to have Macs but haven't
- been able to afford them. Now, maybe they can. I'd hardly classify them as
- idiots, either.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 27 Fri Oct 19, 1990
- JOHN.ALBERT at 19:37 EDT
-
- I wonder what the introduction of the Classic is going to do to the
- marketplace for used Pluses (and other compact Macs)? Probably send
- prices down through the floor....
-
- Consider this: up until last week, reconditioned Pluses were selling
- for around $650-750 from outfits such as Maya Computer, Sun
- Remarketing, Shreve Systems, etc. With the estimated "street price"
- of the 1mb/noHD Classic expected to fall to around $675 or so, why
- buy a used Plus when for the same amount you can get a completely
- new machine (and a much better one, at that)? To what level will used-
- Plus prices have to decline in order to make them a viable
- consideration? $400, maybe? And what about used SE's? About the
- only thing the SE has that the Classic doesn't is the expansion slot
- (although the discussion here indicates that 3rd party developers may
- be introducing a host of expansion devices that connect through the
- Classic's memory expansion board). Further, the majority of SE's have
- only an 800k drive. In my estimation, this would make a basic, used, 2-
- drive SE worth about the same as a new, basic Classic - less than
- $700.
-
- If anything, the new Classic may also introduce many to the Mac way
- by forcing down the prices of older Macs to the level where virtually
- anyone can afford one......
-
- - John
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 28 Fri Oct 19, 1990
- CHUQ at 23:01 PDT
-
- John: I'm already hearing rumors of Pluses under $500 and heading for $400.
- I'd be surprised to see them top 50% of street price for a classic (assuming
- stock hardware). 512Ke and smaller machines are probably close to worthless on
- the market now.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 29 Sat Oct 20, 1990
- TOMFERNANDEZ [Tom] at 03:41 EDT
-
- I'd love to find an SE for $700. If you hear of one, steer the seller my way.
-
- Why is the Classic being touted as such an earth-shattering good deal? It's
- nothing more than the same basic MacPlus which has been available for many
- years. The price, although lower than a Plus, is still unrealistic considering
- the alternatives.
-
- Whats the scoop on the rumor that because of a missing trace on the logic
- board, the Classic does not support hardware handshaking?
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 30 Sat Oct 20, 1990
- J.JIMENEZ [Juan] at 10:49 EDT
-
- No kidding, the Classic is the same thing as a plus but with the ability to
- put a hard disk inside of it. IMO the Classic is priced at what the Plus
- should have cost a while back.
-
- Juan
-
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 31 Sat Oct 20, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 12:12 EDT
-
- From what I've read, that should be, the Classic is the same thing as a SE but
- selling for less than what a Plus has been selling for. If more manufacturers
- jump on the bandwagon with expansion products, the Classic lacking an
- expansion slot will be immaterial.
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 32 Sat Oct 20, 1990
- STACE [Mark] at 20:04 EDT
-
- I disagree! The Classic is 30% faster than a Plus and has a SuperDrive! For
- those not needing an expansion slot this leaves the Plus and the older SEs in
- the dust!
-
- Mark
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 33 Sat Oct 20, 1990
- JOHN.ALBERT at 20:15 EDT
-
- Chuq -
-
- I don't think the plunging prices for used Pluses doom the 512ke to
- "worthless" status - just somewhat limited and very, very cheap.
- People can now consider buying old 512ke's for their kids to use as a
- "first" Mac, without having to spend much more than they would for
- "toy" computers. Since most folks keep old versions of their software
- lying around, there are enough programs available to ensure that the
- 512's can still be productive...
-
- If used Pluses go for around $400, what could a used 512ke sell for?
- How about $250???
- Folks interested in the "Outbound" laptop clone (which will run with
- the ROMs from a 512ke), can now scarf up an old 512ke for the
- Outbound's "mothership" at very little cost - and have a second Mac, to
- boot 8-).
-
- Anyone want an extremely "low end" (but still usable) Mac for $250?
- Amazing - in one day the entire Macintosh market has been
- irrevocably changed. Regardless of the arguments that will rage here
- regarding the pros and cons of the Classic , Apple has finally
- produced, both in new product (and used) a Mac for "everyone"......
- - John
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 34 Sat Oct 20, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 22:03 EDT
-
- Mark, those performance figures are based against the performance of a Mac
- Plus, not a SE. Overall, from what I've heard the performance is comparable to
- the present SE. While there may be little decision making between a Classic
- and a Mac Plus, I don't think it shoots the SE down the tubes. If in fact the
- price of used Mac Plus's and SE's drops well below $1000., seems more logical
- for me to plunk some money into my existing SE and get the FDHD upgrade than
- trying to peddle it for near to nothing. Also keep in mind, later SEs came
- standard with the FDHD drive. I see nothing stated about the Classic which
- makes it any better than an existing SE, except it's one of the newest Mac
- models.
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 35 Sun Oct 21, 1990
- STACE [Mark] at 01:00 EDT
-
- Bart,
-
- If you read my message again I think you will notice that I mentioned that I
- was comparing the Classic's speed to a Plus and that my reference to SEs was
- to older SEs without SuperDrives.
-
- A Classic with a SuperDrive is worth two in the bush! <grin>
-
- Mark
-
- P.S. This message was posted using Aladdin software for the Atari ST. Eat
- your hearts out! <grin>
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 36 Sun Oct 21, 1990
- J.JIMENEZ [Juan] at 13:01 EDT
-
- Stace, don't gloat. You haven't seen Aladdin for the Mac yet.
-
- Juan
-
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 37 Sun Oct 21, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 14:57 EDT
-
- Mark, I still differ in opinion even concerning the older SEs with "only" an
- 800K drive rather than the FDHD. Again, if as others have speculated, the
- price for used SE's will be going through the floor, if one has an older SE,
- as I do, it might be money ahead to get the FDHD drive upgrade and continue
- using the machine. As long as the SE's still doing the job needed and one
- isn't "lusting" for one of the new color machines, it's as viable an
- alternative as losing one's "shirt" trying to sell the SE and picking up a new
- Classic. In comparing the new and old, the only thing I see the Classic has
- over even an older SE is the FDHD drive and that can be remedied quickly and
- at a whole lot less cost than trying to sell the SE, presuming predictions are
- correct concerning retail values.
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 38 Sun Oct 21, 1990
- W.EVANS7 at 21:29 EDT
-
- One reasonably substantial market that hasn't been mentioned is MIDI
- musicians. Apple has (IMO) once again become a player. MOST MIDI apps run
- quite nicely on 68000 machine, tho some need more memory. Being small,
- tranpostable, and cheap I bet Apple will sell a bunch of these to musicians.
- If I'd sdid enough gigging to justify it, I'd pick on it for a second "road"
- computer....*s
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 39 Sun Oct 21, 1990
- STACE [Mark] at 22:11 EDT
-
- Bart,
-
- You are missing my point. My point is this: At the price point that the new
- Mac Classic is selling at it is a BIG bargain for anyone looking at an entry
- level Mac. MUCH more of a bargain than a new Plus or SE ever have been.
-
- Juan,
-
- No problem. When Mac Aladdin comes along I will be able to use it as well!
- <grin>
-
- Mark
-
- P.S. Do you need a beta tester for Mac Aladdin under Spectre emulation?
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 40 Sun Oct 21, 1990
- CHUQ at 19:22 PDT
-
- One advantage of the Mac Classic over a Plus or a 512Ke machine is that the
- Classic has a new analog board and has a number of years of Apple experience
- in building in reliability. If you buy a Plus and a year later the analog
- board goes and needs to be swapped, how much money did you really save?
-
- also, Plus and before doesn't have ADB. If you want to plug in anything other
- than stock hardware, that's a definite issue. pre-ADB mice, trackballs and etc
- are becoming more and more rare.
-
- chuq (these are NOT official apple statements or positions. Especially my
- comments on analog boards).
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 41 Sun Oct 21, 1990
- M.GABRYS at 20:48 MDT
-
- Bart, I was refering to Windows as in MS/DOS Windows....people who want to do
- Mac on a Dos...perhaps idiots was a tad strong, but until the Dos community
- have the applications follow the interface and can exchange data along
- standard lines (cut,paste,etc for all progs) I would call those who would
- expect to be productive on a PS-1 as much as on even a Mac Classic more than
- just niave....Captain ZEEP!...I still think 30% faster of nothing (the 68000)
- is still nothing....030 should be as low as anyone should have to
- go...'expecially since the 040 is just around the corner....
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 42 Mon Oct 22, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 00:03 EDT
-
- M.GABRYS, on that point I agree but the kicker to that contention is, the PS/1
- is barely what I'd consider a minimal machine for trying to run Windows on.
- Even with the 286 processor, it can't take advantage of many of what I
- consider more important aspects of Windows and runs slower than molasses in
- January. IBM stated from their first announcement of the PS/1, they're not
- selling the hardware or it's capabilities as much as they are a supposedly
- easy machine to carry home in boxes, plug in and play. Considering what's
- necessary to add to each of the machines to make each realistic, I still
- think the Classic will run a good race against the PS/1 and in many instances,
- be more productive with fewer additions. Again, depending on what one expects
- to accomplish with a machine today, there are many circumstances where I'd
- have no problems recommending a Classic, with possibly a few extra "goodies."
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 43 Mon Oct 22, 1990
- BASELINE [Matthew] at 19:04 CDT
-
- Hate to break in on this lively discussion, but I just checked with our local
- Apple dealer. In the past 4 days he has sold 4 Classics and NO si's. Seems
- like people are going for the lower priced Macs. Most of the people buying
- the Macs were corporate/business users, too.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 44 Mon Oct 22, 1990
- M.GABRYS at 23:09 MDT
-
- the home wars are indeed on....I'm very skeptical, cynical, and pessimistic
- about home use beyond word proc and home telecommunications...somebody prove
- me and that annoying writer in MAcUSer..John D....but I feel that more people
- will spend a lot initially to find out that to do "serious" stuff, that they
- should have spent a little more before...an associate at
- work had to explain till she was blue in the face that the "Classic" could
- NOT do what the Ci's that we use do....People can and will get hurt I believe
- Apple has pointed out the performace "levels" in the lit...but at the speed
- some Classics are going out the door I wonder how many are being bought on
- false pretentions....CPTXEEP!
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 45 Tue Oct 23, 1990
- D.BULLARD at 06:46 MDT
-
- It's clear the so called "home market" isn't, or at least isn't what many
- expecy expected years ago. I still think that is a matter of marketting and
- putting together a package that tells people what they can do with a computer,
- and how to do it, that is, good, informative and fun tutorials.
-
- I'll never forget when I started reading the advice articles for new or
- potentially new, computer users. The advice was, decide what you want to use
- a computer to do, then find the software that will do it, then find the
- computer that will run it. This advice seems sound, and logical but it is of
- limited usefulness. Why? Because someone new to computers as I was will not
- know all the things a computer can do for one. So, a sales pitch that does
- that and bundles the right stuff w would work, in my opinion.
-
- However, I think events will overtake the lack of current marketing. Or t to
- be more exact, another form of marketing will eventually work, but is a lot
- slower. I'm talking about the school system. Computer use in the classroom
- will continue to grow and, i think, start to mushroom. When it reaches some
- threshold, the clamor of the kids for home computers will grow. So the
- personal computer makers that work hard on selling to schools will do OK in
- the long run. Seems like a very long run though.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 46 Tue Oct 23, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 15:26 EDT
-
- Personally, I think all this "home computer" marketing is something certain
- companies are attempting to fabricate. I have yet to determine what exact
- differences there should be established between a computer able to be used in
- business versus the home, other than price. Obviously it's much easier,
- depending on the business, to justify a $5 to $10 thousand dollar computer
- than for use at home. It's my perception Tandy's trying to "aim" their "home
- computer" pretty much at women, considering the ready-to-run applications
- which are included with the machine. IBM is marketing their PS/1 strictly
- based on the supposed ease of setting up once a neophyte gets it home, not on
- what the machine's capabilities are now or three years down the road.
-
- In the time I was involved with sales at a university, it was not uncommon to
- have faculty, staff and students come into the computer store saying they had
- been told they _had_ to buy a computer to do all these nifty tasks and if they
- didn't have a computer, they just weren't "with it" these days. Problem was,
- they were satisfied doing these "nifty" tasks the way they were. Tended to
- appear to me as a slight bit of peer pressure.
-
- If Apple falls for this "home computer" philosophy, I'll be greatly
- disappointed. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist, except in the minds
- of some marketing experts. Yes, there are many, many uses for computers in the
- home but I seriously doubt it takes a whole new "breed" of computers from what
- already exists on the market. It appears to me pointing out the reasonable
- price versus capabilities is a more logical method of adevertising. There are
- MANY home tasks the Mac Classic will be able to accomplish easily, presuming
- one's not bringing complex graphic layouts home from work. I've never been one
- to put a whole lot of emphasis on color versus usefulness. Obviously the Mac
- Classic's most likely not the new machine those of us who have been using and
- are experienced with the Mac would seriously consider but by the same token, I
- don't think we're the market Apple is trying to attract. From what I've seen,
- there has been totally too much emphasis put on the particular processor being
- used in a computer versus whether that machine will accomplish what the person
- would like to do with a computer. There's little to no reasons, with some
- exceptions, of course, for a IIci or IIfx to be considered for use at home.
- Appears to me to be a drastic overkill and reminiscent of the overselling I
- use to observe computer stores attempting when selling a system to a first
- time buyer. By the time the "session" was over, the poor folks walked out with
- a $4 thousand dollar system when if the salesperson would have listened to
- their needs rather than their commission on the sale, a $2500 machine would
- have sufficed.
-
- ...... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 47 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- A.ADLER [Andy] at 02:20 EDT
-
- I'm a DOS user (20 MHz '386 clone) who's thinking of acquiring a Classic, so I
- can "dabble" in the Mac environment (there are a couple of non processor-
- intensive radio control programs I'd like to try). My only hesitation is the
- lack of an SE-type Direct Slot -- it's conceiveble that I'd want to add a
- larger monitor at some pint down the road. I saw a reference suggesting that
- one company believes the memory-access slot could somehow be adapted for
- additional uses (such as video); does that sound plaudible? What about
- purchasing a Classic vis-a-vis an SE-with-slot? Thanks!
-
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 48 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- TOMFERNANDEZ [Tom] at 02:33 EDT
-
- radio control programs? Like for shortwave receivers???
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 49 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- G.MATSUDA [Gann] at 01:58 PDT
-
- Bart--
-
- You'd better think twice about your statement that "...Tandy's trying to 'aim'
- their 'home computer' pretty much at women, considering the ready-to-run
- applications... ." That is a very sexist statement! I doubt that was your
- intent, but it is sexist. Just because Tandy includes lots of "ready-to-run"
- software with their computers doesn't mean that they are targeted at women.
- Your statement could be construed to imply that women are incapable of using
- more sophisticated software. I hope the female contingent here in the Mac RT
- doesn't complain to you!
-
- Gann
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 50 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- LINDA.KAPLAN at 16:04 EDT
-
- TOM: Yes, that's what he means. He's heavily into scanners and radio stuff. --
- L
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 51 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- CHUQ at 17:49 PDT
-
- I can't WAIT until my R5000 arrives. With serial port.
-
- As general consideration, a Mac SE with 40 Meg HD has been available in this
- area for about $2400. A new mac classic with 40HD is listing at $1499 and
- street price will be somewhat less. For that $1000 you lose about 15% of
- performance but gain the SE slot. Is it worth it? If you really think a slot
- is important, take a closer look at the LC, which you should be able to get
- with color for about the price of the SE above. Or less with a mono.
-
- (is a larger screen important? Depends. I have a two page at work. For what I
- do, I really need it. Sitting next to it is an SE. For what I do with it, I
- don't need anything more than the 9". Reality is somewhere in the middle. Best
- thing: find a Mac Classic and play with it a bit and see if the thing's too
- small....)
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 52 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- CHERNOFF [Paul] at 21:06 EDT
-
- I think that Bart is correct that Tandy is aiming their computers at women in
- the home. But this is not Bart's sexism, but Tandy's.
-
- There is a home-based market, but more importantly there is a low-cost
- computer market. Just as Japanese cars were originally inexpensive, they
- garnered a loyal following which bought more expensive Japanese cars as they
- earned more money. Computers can be that way but even more so, since our newer
- computers often build upon the investment we made in our older ones.
-
- Paul
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 53 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 22:16 EDT
-
- Gann, that's not my speculation but most definite inferences directly from
- Tandy. I doubt I have the issues of The Dallas Morning News which covered the
- introduction of their "home computer," but there wasn't any doubt what their
- "meanings" were in describing the uses of the computer. After all, I believe
- their ads show the computer running in the kitchen, make mention of it coming
- with a recipe program, address book and check balancing software. Obviously
- they were smart enough NOT to come right out and say the market they are after
- but it didn't take much imagination, based on their comments to conclude what
- market that is.
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 54 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- A.ADLER [Andy] at 22:21 EDT
-
- Actually, I was considering the option of purchasing a second-hand SE (or a
- new one at a close-out price). There's no way I'd pay current prices for an
- SE, slot or no slot.
-
- I did get a chance to play with a Classic (hard drive configuration) today at
- a local dealer, and was reasonably impressed with its quickness. I'm not
- planning anything so intensive that I can't afford to wait an extra second or
- two. And I can't see putting out the money required even for an LC; my
- applications don't justify it (my '386 PC will probably remain the principal
- platform here). A Classic with 4 megs and a decent hard drive ought to
- suffice, both for me and a couple of stepdaughters who aren't especially
- enamored of the CP/M system I gave 'em <grin>.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 55 Wed Oct 24, 1990
- CHUQ at 20:16 PDT
-
- I've seen the marketing stuff on the new Tandy. It is terribly sexist and not
- well tied to the real world. The recipe program comes with a whole 50 or so
- recipes on disk. Wow. Just that thing for all you little fillies.
-
- I think Tandy is going to blow itself up with this one, just like all the
- previous attempts at selling home computers did. There is no home market.
-
- There are various markets that involve getting computers into homes, though.
- Education. home office. Work at home types. Freelancers and consultants. This
- doesn't imply a home market, thought.
-
- What it really implies is a market that is more budget conscious, so it's
- important to keep the cost down. These machines don't have to be as spiffy or
- as powerful -- but they can't be crippled and they can't be expensive.
-
- Hmm. That sounds vaguely familiar.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 56 Thu Oct 25, 1990
- W.EVANS7 at 01:19 EDT
-
- I still haven't heard Apple SAY the Classic was a "home computer." I DID read
- a mention of home users lumped in with students and "first time business
- buyers." Three of the four Mac users in my office have a machine at home (and
- the fourth owns the company....). There are enough home users to easily make
- the Classic worth doing, BUT I've yet to meet one who needs or wants the
- mythical "home computer." The thing's an SE minus the slot.. sounds like a
- good deal to me.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 57 Thu Oct 25, 1990
- G.MATSUDA [Gann] at 02:51 PDT
-
- Bart-- Didn't intend to "jump" on you. I haven't seen Tandy's ads. But if
- they are as you describe, then Tandy is sure not going to sell many machines.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 58 Thu Oct 25, 1990
- D.BULLARD at 07:28 MDT
-
- Sorry I can't say what brand of computer, but a commercial I saw today
- indicates someone with the right idea for the home market. The machine uses a
- CD ROM player and comes with (at least) two disks, one a unabridged
- dictionary (in color) and the other (I believe) an encyclopedia.
-
- Now here is something those not using computers or knowing what they can do
- can understand. They can see a use and use it right now, with a minimum of
- learning. Contrast this with the concept of "as soon as you buy a database
- and learn to us it, you can keep a neat telephone list."
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 59 Thu Oct 25, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 15:55 EDT
-
- I think that's Magnavox (sp?) who's running that ad on TV with the Smothers
- Brothers. That's probably the next aspect (CD player) included and a
- dictionary and encyclopedia's not a bad idea but I wonder what the reaction's
- going to be come time to update those CD disks. That's not exactly going to be
- inexpensive by today's prices.
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 60 Thu Oct 25, 1990
- PHOTOBASE2 [John Crane] at 18:46 EDT
-
- Sheesh, people are so sensitive these days. Let's see, Tandy is aiming a
- computer at people who cook, manage homes, etc., and that's sexist?
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 61 Thu Oct 25, 1990
- R.BROCHNER [Ruben] at 20:42 CDT
-
- What is the memory configuration on the Mac Classic. Does it have four SIMM
- slots like the SE & Plus? Will the same SIMM's Work? If they are the same
- does that mean that you can install four meg's with one-megabyte SIMM's?
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 62 Fri Oct 26, 1990
- LINDA.KAPLAN at 20:11 EDT
-
- I'm going to ask a silly question. I received a promo tape today, describing
- the new Macs. Apple sent this video tape to Apple Partners. In viewing it, it
- sounded like the Classic doesn't have a SCSI port. Now, is that true? If
- that's true, I think it's useless.
-
- --L
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 63 Fri Oct 26, 1990
- DSACHS [Big Dave] at 19:13 CDT
-
- At present to expand the base Classic model, you have to add a memory expander
- board, which contains the second megabyte and has SIMM slots that allow you to
- go to 2.5 or 4 mdMB. THe way memory prices are going I I really expect the
- next incarnation to have 4 MB soldered in. Unnecessary connectors cost a
- fortune.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 64 Fri Oct 26, 1990
- CHUQ at 19:51 PDT
-
- Classic has a SCSI port. What it doesn't have is an external floppy port.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 65 Fri Oct 26, 1990
- LINDA.KAPLAN at 23:07 EDT
-
- Really, Chuq. Fascinating. This video tape makes a big deal about the other
- two machines having a SCSI port that can do things like run the CD-ROM player,
- but doesn't mention the port for the Classic. I thought that would have been
- bizarre. But I also think it's silly not to be able to hook up a second
- floppy. I couldn't function without two, myself. But I know a lot of people
- do. I think the video tape is misleading. Thanks.
-
- --L
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 66 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- CHUQ at 10:30 PDT
-
- With the cost of hard disks dropping, a second floppy is pretty much silly,
- especially since 7.0 is going to need a HD to run. Relatively few people use
- the second floppy port, so it went away to reduce the cost of manufacturing.
- Instead of spending $150-200 (street) on an external floppy, you can spend
- $250-$400 on a 20 Meg HD (street). Which is the better deal?
-
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 67 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- JOHN.ALBERT at 13:57 EDT
-
- The Classic does indeed have an external floppy port....
-
- Looking at the back of the Classic, here are the ports (from left to
- right as you face the rear of the machine:
- Apple Desktop Bus port (1 only)
- Floppy Disk Drive Port
- SCSI Port
- Printer Port
- Modem Port
- Audio Out Port
-
- - John
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 68 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- J.JIMENEZ [Juan] at 16:01 EDT
-
- I was wondering whether I was going crazy or not, but John confirmed that I'm
- sane. The Classic does have a floppy port.
-
- Chuq, go sit in the corner. :)
-
- Juan
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 69 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- CHUQ at 14:41 PDT
-
- oops. My apologies. That's what I get from working from memory. I was right
- about the SCSI port, at least. I guess I was talking about the Mac Classic Jr.
- or something. (actually, I think I misremembered the floppy stuff from one of
- the other new machines that don't have it. Sorry...)(
-
- *trudge* *trudge* *slump* *whimper*
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 70 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- J.JIMENEZ [Juan] at 19:40 EST
-
- <grin>
-
- Juan
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 71 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- LINDA.KAPLAN at 19:55 EST
-
- Which new Mac doesn't have a SCSI port, if any? Anyone answer, except CHUQ.
- <g>
-
- I can't agree with you, Chuq. I always keep two floppy drives on all my Macs
- and I use huge hard drives, too. Much more convenient to have two floppy
- drives. I do agree most people do without them, though.
-
- --L
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 72 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- DON.PEASLEE [Don] at 21:30 EST
-
- Gee, Chuq, amazing how they turn on ya when you're down. :-)
-
- ____Don
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 73 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- CHUQ at 19:55 PST
-
- Hey, if I want abuse, I'll go play on USENET. I thought we were friends.
-
- I don't think ANY mac comes without a SCSI port these days. Of course, that's
- just my opinion, not a fact.
-
- How about I create a topic where I can fo apologize for a few decades?
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 74 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- BART.BARTON at 23:44 EST
-
- Chuq, we ARE friends. You should see how we'd be talking to you if we didn't
- like 'ya. :-)
-
- ..... Bart
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 75 Sat Oct 27, 1990
- G.MATSUDA [Gann] at 23:45 PST
-
- Bart's right about that, Chuq. You'd never want to return here if we didn't
- like you! :-)
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 76 Sun Oct 28, 1990
- MS.RAINBO at 04:04 EST
-
- All of the new Macs have SCSI ports. Apple's PR blurbs now count that feature
- as being common throughout the current line, and
- *virtually* guarantee it to be on all future Macs. If course, given the
- wonderful success they have with SCSI interfaces, I wouldn't be surprised if
- they'd jump at any new interface that came along.
- ------------
- Category 7, Topic 19
- Message 77 Sun Oct 28, 1990
- LINDA.KAPLAN at 08:50 EST
-
- Are there any Macs that won't take two floppy drives, then?
-
- I forgive you, Chuq.
-
- The video they sent us developers is really misleading. First it describes the
- Classic and then it starts describing the next-up (whatever that one is) and
- starts rhapsodizing about the SCIS port and how you can attach things to it
- like a CD-ROM unit. It really does imply that the Classic doesn't have this.
- Ugh.
-
- --L
- ------------
-